Episode 28: There And Back – The Charlie Plumb Story

Episode 28 of American Warrior Radio, part of the “Old Guys on the Airplanes” series, introduces Charlie Plumb, a Navy fighter pilot and Naval Academy graduate who became a Prisoner of War (POW) in Vietnam, held from 1967 to 1973. Host John Mollison notes that while the episode started as a story about an airplane and a man shot down, it evolved into a broader story about Vietnam POWs.

Charlie Plumb was shot down on May 19, 1967, which was Ho Chi Minh’s birthday. He believes his aircraft was hit by an SA-2 surface-to-air missile that came from his six o’clock position; he did not see it. The target area near Hanoi was known as the “most heavily defended city in the world” at the time, boasting immense anti-aircraft artillery and missiles. While flying into this “hornet’s nest” was dangerous, being shot down nearby meant being close to a formal prison camp rather than being taken to the jungle. It was a tough day, with eight F-4 Phantoms also being shot down. By 1973, near the end of the war, the North Vietnamese were reportedly running out of missile parts.

Upon capture, Charlie became one of the “first three or four hundred guys” who, under torture, “broke” and gave their captors more than just name, rank, serial number, and date of birth, which was the limit set by the code of conduct based on the Geneva Convention. This led to profound guilt, with some prisoners even considering suicide because they felt they had “besmirched the flag”.

Charlie Plumb shared his strategy for enduring torture. When faced with pain, he would think, “This hurts, but I’m alive, and if it doesn’t get any worse than this, I’m going to survive this”. As the torture escalated, for example, tightening ropes or being hung from a hook in the ceiling, he would adjust, saying, “Well, this hurts even more, but I’m still alive, and if it doesn’t get any worse than this I can survive this”. This process helped him establish “plateaus of pain”. He emphasizes that he never believed he was going to die or “parry,” feeling that accepting death as a possibility would imply lacking the strength to survive. He is “convinced that adversity is a horrible thing to waste”.

Life as a POW involved significant hardship. The transcript mentions leg irons being used on some prisoners for up to three months, forcing them to relieve themselves where they were, leading to severe rashes and an inability to get clean. The Vietnamese captors claimed they did not need to adhere to the Geneva Convention because it was not a “declared war,” despite having signed the convention. Torture methods included being hung from a hook in the ceiling. This involved shackling ankles and wrists, tying elbows behind the back until they touched, then using ropes to twist the body into a contorted position (“like a human pretzel”), dislocating shoulders and pulling feet up towards the face. The goal of this torture was to get information.

Communication among prisoners was crucial. The Vietnamese tried to prevent it by frequently moving prisoners and building new camps. However, the POWs developed an “amazing” communication system. Within 48 hours of arriving at a new camp, 150 men would know the basic information (name, rank, serial number, date of birth) of every other prisoner. They used mirrors made from pieces of mahogany board with earwax stuck outside vent holes to see into neighboring cells and communicate using deaf-mute code, semaphore, or Morse code. Every night, their sign-off prayer tapped through the walls was “GBU” – God Bless You.

Charlie Plumb reflects on the experience, remembering the pain, frustration, loneliness, and humiliation. While he would “never ever choose to go through something like this,” he recognizes its value and believes he is a better person because of it. He feels that facing such a challenge provides the confidence to meet new challenges in life, believing nothing now will challenge him as much as being inside that cell.

Returning home in 1973, Charlie Plumb eventually went “There And Back” by returning to Vietnam in 2015. He had a notable meeting with the former commandant of the prison. The commandant insisted that American POWs received human treatment and that Vietnam treated them better than any other country. He justified moving prisoners and keeping them separated by claiming the prisoners’ names and numbers were “top secret” to prevent the American government from knowing how many had been captured. The commandant also believed his actions contributed to improving relations between Vietnam and America.

Charlie Plumb found the commandant’s account contained “five or six major lies,” contradicting the reality he and other POWs experienced. The commandant claimed they never beat Americans and that all prisoners received equal treatment, which Charlie dismisses as “malarkey” and “absolutely is not true”. While frustrated by the commandant sticking to the “party line” he’d heard for six years, Charlie was surprised by the commandant’s attempt to establish a seemingly “genuine” friendship. However, Charlie states he does not need the commandant to admit the torture or apologize. He feels it wouldn’t make a difference to him personally, though it might offer some “hope for humanity” if the commandant came clean. He suspects the commandant believes his own lie, possibly from hearing it repeatedly. Charlie emphasizes that forgiveness is a “survival issue,” stating he is healthier today because he forgave his captors a long time ago.

The conversation also touches on the meaning of freedom. Charlie Plumb shared a profound insight: the smallest prison cell in the world is the “eight inches between your ears”.